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Poetry Showcase [Political] Moderators for this section: Weaver, ochsterboxter, CadenzRime, Lingua Pura, ososment, carolynrn, Inker

To Erin The Side Of Peace.

Outline: A poem of hope, or at least it was when I wrote it (1994) then the second time I performed it I got a death threat. Two days later I received another... Just for performing a poem ????????
Why: because...
Review: any
TO ERIN THE SIDE OF PEACE.



The England Ireland troubles began
before Oliver Cromwell had pillaged the land
but when he had finished and made Ireland two
there was no way those people could live free and true
You listen to Kavana, listen to Shane
you listen to Christy again and again
it's tales of the past and then shoot to kill
Joe McCann, Kevin Barry and Ned of the hill.

We hanged Robert Emmett in eighteen o'three
to prove to the world that the Irish weren't free
In nineteen sixteen the troubles began
so we added to them with the old Black and Tans.
How many innocent still have to die
like the thirteen killed when the soldiers let fly
how many martyrs have died in the past
and how many innocent by the bomb's blast ?

So Catholic and Protestant hold out your hands
it's the first step to freedom for Erin's fair land
whether Adams or Paisley I don't give a damn
but no more wasted lives like young Bobby Sands
for I'd far sooner hear the children at play
than the bombs and the bullets that go on all day
and the sooner the better when all deaths have ceased
put your violence behind you and all work for peace.
Author Explanation: Among my friends when a teenager, were Ron (Irish) and Paul (English) and we were all part of the same bunch. Paul joined the Guards Regiment and in his six weeks off before his first posting (N.Ireland) we all watched 'Bloody Sunday' occur on the local pub's tele'. Two days later Ron left us to fight for his country... Then Paul left to fight for his. Paul came back but we never heard from Ron again... This was a projected musical number for the second 'Kocaine' album. The music was an adaptation of a track you can find on a Mike Harding album entitled Jiggery Pokery. Unfortunately owing to people moving to get jobs, we never recorded it and the band split soon after... For Ron and Paul.
Carson [<18]
[Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:16 am]
Hey Chris,

I assume this is the poem you referred to the last time we discussed this kinda thing?

Quote:
whether Adams or Paisley I don't give a damn
but no more wasted lives like young Bobby Sands
Aye, but we care. See that's the thing - I think in many ways you have to be HERE to understand. I'm not saying other people don't. What I'm saying is, that other people can look at our situation from across the sea and can understand it THAT way. But if you were actually here, if this place was YOUR country, then it's so so different. As I'm sure ye know, Adams and Paisley embody(/ied) two different directions for our country. That's of extreme importance. And as for Sands, well he chose to die in the Maize prison - and we all know the reason he was in there in the first place.

I'm not trying to justify loyalists. Both loyalists and republicans are equally culpible for violence. But the people are caught in the middle of all this. How do you cure THIS difference? Some of the people want a united Ireland and some of the people want continued unification with Britain. Obviously violence is not the way forward - but we set a precedent early on and it continued like that. What I mean is that WE are so invested in this - as people of Northern Ireland this whole crisis and its outcome is part of OUR IDENDITY.

In recent years there has been advancement but at a cost. In a way, Paisley compromised his principles by going into government with terrorists. There are issues with that, but we're going forward like this now, and it's shaky and it's fragile and some violence still continues. Is there a future in this? In half measures? Possibly. My generation doesn't seemta care and it worries me. What also worries me is that this wont last and that the violence could rise up again.

Look, I liked this and I liked its sentiment. But there's so much underlying hurt and grief here. Seamus Heaney described us as being left raw time and again "like opened ground", a wound that we never allowed to close over. And how could we? In terms of people and in terms of our country there's so much at stake. The issues are still there, of course they are. And we all still care, and I think someday, people are gonna do more about it.

All I'm saying is that from a Northern Irish perspective purely, it matters greatly whether its Adams or Paisley.

I concur with your sentiment though, I hope this peace is consolidated and that it lasts. I'm too young to have seen the occurrences here at first hand, but I've talked to people, I've seen footage and I've seen hurt and grief as a result of the troubles right up close, and it's ugly. The whole place is scarred, and we're only starting to come out a bit now. It's sad, it really is.

Tim
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All these things that I've done - The Killers
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Carson [<18]
[Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:21 am]
By the way..

Down the road from me there's this place called "the freedom corner" - it's basically loadsa murals on a wall beside the main road.

One reads "This struggle is about nationality, this we shall maintain" And that's just it.

I'm going on a bit maybe, but once I get on this I do get fired up, and I think I should be. Anyways, thanks for the read.

Tim
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Chris Ripple
[Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:54 pm]
Yes Tim, it is that one, but whichever side anybody supports is it worth a two death threats, both of which came from members of the local I.R.A. supporters club.
As noted in the blurb, I had personal reasons for writing it. It was one of the strangest feelings of my life knowing that two mates who drank, laughed and pulled girls together went off and fought each other. Like you rightfully say in your crit' sometimes you have to be there to understand it. After all this time I still have problems with it. As for the sentiments expressed, well who wouldn't want peace ? Ireland is a beautiful country and if the politico's want it to stay that way then they have to put differences behind them and TALK. The alternative is just too appalling to contemplate.
Just as a matter of interest, have you read any of the Bobby Sands poems and lyrics ?
The guy did have a talent for it so I would still call his death a waste regardless of what else he was in for. Remember we've had the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6. Both of which 'groups' of people were stitched up by the law for being Irish and in the wrong place at the wrong time and that was over here. Christ alone knows what it must have been like over in Ireland for both sides ? Thanx for the crit. I was hoping you'd spot it.
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Carson [<18]
[Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:34 pm]
Nope actually, haven't read the Bobby Sands stuff. I'm not incinuating he was a waste of space. It's just, well take this right? I have this wise auld history teacher at school and he lived through the troubles and he said to me recently, "you know, your political values and morals were set by the time you were six or eight", and I think he's right. I grew up in a unionist area, in a unionist inclined family. Not loyalists, mind. The nearest ones live around the corner and just down the road from here, though having said that we once had a UVF family two doors down but that's another story. My point is, that I can LOOK at our conflict and our crisis and I can SEE everything that's happened and the aftermath and the consequences, superficially. But when you actually get down to me getting involved in it - I can only be impartial up to a point. Once you pass that point, I'm a unionist and negatively inclined towards Republicans. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against catholic/nationalist people. I have friends that are catholics, and friends that are nationalists. But I don't agree with what they represent, and their views. And that's fair enough, I respect them but just don't accept their views - it's just that, nothing personal.
But once you get into the actual execution of our politics then I have something more to say. I condemn violence and terrorism in any form - and the biased part of me wants to say to you that I wasn't surprised that both death threats came from a Republican IRA source. Personally, I think it's terrible that that happened to you for merely presenting your own view, writing your own poem on it - goodness knows you had the right to. I'd forgotten the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6 too, and I read your author explination. It's strange to see how the consequences of our conflict affect so many others elsewhere.

All I mean is though, that I'm too involved in it already to be TOO impartial our able to discuss it dispassionately. Maybe on occassion I'd come across as slightly (and unintentioanlly) bigoted, but I think most of the time that's okay. As long as it's nothing secterian. It just makes me sick when you see Paisley and McGuiness touring America and laughing as if the last thirty or forty years of turmoil and bloodhsed never happened. Something has to be done, of course, but I think Paisley has compromised too much. I don't have a problem with both unionists and nationalists being in government. But those representing the nationalists are terrorists - Sinn Fein IRA. Paisley isn't a terrorist - he protested with marches and strikes et cetera during the conflict. In contrast McGuiness planted bombs and was involved in shootings.

Quote:
Ireland is a beautiful country and if the politico's want it to stay that way then they have to put differences behind them and TALK. The alternative is just too appalling to contemplate.
Aye, but we've lived it. This is a beautiful place, I'm convinced among the most beautiful in the world. But about putting our differences behind and talking - I know what you're saying and I DO agree but ah, in a way it can't really happen. I'm not advocating violence as a response - what I mean is that when you say "differences", it isn't referring to a tiff or a quarrel or a disagreement about something. It's referring to deaths, mass killings, rioting, arson etc. And within that there's REAL people. People who have lost loved ones, people who have lost their homes, been intimidated by violence, the whole place is scarred so ugly with the past. So when we say "differences", it means the past - and that generation is still here, there's too much bitterness - so much so that dropping the past seems like we're betraying the memory and the gravity of it. I always thought it was wrong to go into any kind of discussions with terrorists. There's a principal in there, and I think Paisley has surrendered it. I mean we're talking about the future of a COUNTRY here, this isn't JUST about stopping the violence, it's about going forward educating OUR children, preparing for OUR future and there's TERRORISTS and killers in there deciding how it's done? I mean come on, how does that work? It's not right, and there's nothing we can do about it now, people are desperate to see that the violence doesn't come back - and that's understandable. I just wonder if we realise yet what we've done. It's irrevocable, and nobody can quite see where Northern Ireland's going. And to me that's dangerous. But it has to do. For now.

Sorry to go on like that by the way, but hey. Thanks again.

Tim
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Chris Ripple
[Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:56 pm]
Tim, as always you seem to hit the nail squarely on the head. I think the crucial words
are yours

'Dropping the past seems like we're betraying the memory and gravity of it...'

You're right. It is, but what is the alternative ? I can't think of any other way forward.
All I can do is comment on the stupidity and waste of it all, and in the context of this particular piece, it affected me. What happened to my two friends should not have happened to anyone. It was crazy...absolute madness, but both had to do what they did.
I understand why they did it, but... To be seventeen going on eighteen and that happening was more than strange, it forced me to see things from another perspective and at the time I was as anti I.R.A. as the next Englishman/Brit/whatever.
But this forced me to think outside the usual box, I tried to really understand why it should have occurred and I read and I studied things and I finally came to the conclusion that I could never know really unless I was an Irishman.
But... It never stopped the feelings of hurt and betrayal. I think that is what I was feeling. Hurt because my friends could be killing each other and betrayal because that situation should not be occurring and yet nobody on either side was doing anything to stop it.
Ok, Historical perspective... I was a 'hippie' kid, peace and love, have a beer, drop a tab, smoke a bit of grass, chat up/sleep with girls... that is where I was at the time it occurred. Still living at home with parents while drum roadie-ing for a band at night and holding down a day job. There were a lot of us felt pretty much the same way at the time and when we saw the scenes of destruction and grief at what was occurring in Ireland you felt something, a sort of hurt, a sort of despair and the question on everybody's lips at the time was WHY ? These people should not have to suffer this, but what can you do about it ? Nothing, so get on with your life. Then we had Paul and Ron... It hits you and brings it home to you that this is not happening in another country to people you don't know, this is happening now and to you and your friends and you don't like it because it affects you personally and it bloody well hurts and don't even think about the confusion among your mates both male and female alike...
Paul came back. Did one tour and then got his parents to buy him out. I've never met anyone from those days who knew what became of Ron.

Two kids (twins) who were at my infant school were shot and killed by a British patrol after delivering some (probably) knocked off cigarettes to the soldier's mess. The Ironies just seem to mount up and twenty odd years later I get two death threats from
two people who weren't even Irish (both were born here of Irish ancestry)but since I'd already had a previous one for something else I'd written, I laughed them off.
Now, it's just incidental. What matters to me is what I wrote for Paul and Ron.
IF Ron died in the troubles am I being true to the memory of a good mate ?
I don't know but I hope so.

I'm still partially that hippie kid because we actually had a better future in our grasp back then, but somebody sold the dream. There are bits of the philosophy I still cling to 'cos there is a better way. I know there is 'cos I've seen it but like a lot of others, couldn't hold on to it. The thing that changed was inside me. I question things more and try to understand why people say and do the things they do. I look for the truths behind the masks and the statements and I tend to make comments upon them when I turn them up. (Don't ever get me started on the hypocrisy of Amerika toward terrorists... Noraid anyone ?) Some people agree and some don't (eleven death threats so far for writing and performing my own stuff is proof of that, but hey... I've had one heart attack too)
Enough background or nobody'll buy the book...

Tim, if you will allow me to say it ? You have a brain and you use it well, better than most from what I've read of your work. Keep doing so, it does you proud.
Stay cool, dude. Peace.
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maipenrai
[Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:23 am]
must have come back to this 5 times now and still not sure what to say on it.

it annoys me, think i will leave it at that.
Bernie
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but suffer this a while
whatever makes a soldier cry
will make a killer smile

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Philip Graham King
[Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:43 pm]
I'm not sure where I stand on the 'politics' in this but i think this is a good poem.

PGK.
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PenJen
[Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:19 am]
Hi Chris,

Read this piece (and following commentary) with interest. Reads well and as a 'song' - wouldn't be out of place with some of so-called sympathised songs of the mid-80s-90s (although who is 'Kavana' - are you referring to the Monaghan Poet Patrick Kavanagh?). Understand why you have written this, yet it follows what some may define as to a 'Nationalist' leaning rather than from a more objective viewpoint - which, knowing you're based in England and with (I assume) no direct experience of Ireland and her history - intrigues me. A little peculiar but then, it works too, in a way.

As for receiving 'death threats' - I am at a loss as to how this poem in recital would have warranted such and from who you said issued them. If anything, I would have thought the opposite. What kind of audience did you read this to and where? Possibly during or after some terrible catastrophe or suchlike?

And I agree with you on Bobby Sands MP. A fine writer and poet.

Tim, I know you're intelligent and seem well up on the current (and past) situation on the North of Ireland, the Troubles, politics etc but statements like these:

Quote:
In a way, Paisley compromised his principles by going into government with terrorists.


and

Quote:
But those representing the nationalists are terrorists - Sinn Fein IRA. Paisley isn't a terrorist - he protested with marches and strikes et cetera during the conflict. In contrast McGuiness planted bombs and was involved in shootings.


are bullshit, and you know it.

I'm a Nationalist, a Catholic (although lapsed), support Sinn Féin (on the whole ALL politicians here - in the North - are not doing their job to better our society's 'social' and 'economic' well-being, regardless of what party they represent) but, whatever, I do NOT support - or ever have done - terrorists of any kind or side, IRA or whatever. I've lived it, seen plenty... you never forget it, never, but you do move on, learn from it and try hard to let it go, forgive, fight for peace and civil rights and a community of unity and a better place for our children and their children and things ARE getting better. Better than even two years ago although we are faced with other realities - although secterism is still in pockets, especially at certain times of the year - every city, town, village has other crime-related issues same as other cities, towns and villages throughout the world. The same social and economic concerns - things that were never really dealt with and now are to the fore, as you know.

What everyone needs is to be re-educated in what has happened the last 800 years - BOTH sides. Nothing to do with religion or politics; all to do with pride, identity and power and a people whose land was taken from them and we want it back. Simple as.

Another thing - all Catholics are not Nationalists as are not all Nationalists Republicans. Same too for Protestants, Unionists, Loyalists and the like. Big, big sweeping statements and very, very different ideals.

Peace,

Jen

PS: A book called 'Harrowing of the Heart - The Poetry of Bloody Sunday', an insight into Derry's darkest day, is due out at the end of this month (Guildhall Press) and attempts to capture the disbelief and heartbreak felt by a community and a nation through the artistic responses of a few. An array of eyewitnesses, relatives and local writers merge alongside writers and artists such as Seamus Heaney, Brian Friel, John Lennon and Yoko Ono, Christy Moore, Thomas Kinsella, Seamus Deane and Paul Muldoon to create a unique literary perspective of the events of 30 January 1972, with a foreword by Dr Edward Daly. This is one way that a release of hurt and expression can be made to remind and retain a part of our history, horrible and horrific as it was and is. A peace (sic) of healing too.
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PenJen
[Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:23 am]
Just read the above from me - it reads a little clipped/sharp but that's more to do with not having enough time to post a more articulated and constructive reply (long as the one above is). No offence intended (if any taken). Plus I know I've posted on same theme/topic many's a time in here on the back of other poems, some my own - although Chris & Tim you wouldn't have been about to read any of them, I'm afraid.

PS: Tim - will email ye about 'Verbal' if not later today, then tonight, hopefully. Haven't forgotten - just been wile busy and distracted. Cheers.
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Carson [<18]
[Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:55 pm]
No worries on the Verbal front Jen, just whenever ye can.

With regard to my comments that you highlighted, re-reading I'd agree that they are sweeping/strong.

But in response - they may well be a load of crap, but I don't know it. In truth, I don't know very much. I'm sixteen, and I've probably only had a conscious awareness (or interest) of our situation for four years at the most. I haven't reaally seen up close what you have - I can only see the consequences and the situation down the line from that. I think it goes back to what I said to Chris - that your morals/political mindset are heavily influenced by your family. I've been living under this roof for sixteen years - and it's only in the last two years that I've been exposed to any kind of different opinions on it. Those two statements that you highlighted are favourites in my house, and I guess subconsciously, I've adopted them, and threw them out pretty naively here. My auld Dad's a pretty strong unionist - and until these last few years, he's been the ONLY real political influence on me. I'm not trying to create an argument or offend or anything (apologies if my comments from the previous post did) - but didn't Ian Paisley say "Never. Ulster says no." etc? Was Martin McGuiness not a member of the IRA? I mean, I've only got a basic knowledge I suppose, of the last forty years.

I wonder does that make sense. At the end of the day I'm still for the executive, for peace and democracy. I agree whole heartedly with what you said as well.
Quote:
What everyone needs is to be re-educated in what has happened the last 800 years - BOTH sides. Nothing to do with religion or politics; all to do with pride, identity and power and a people whose land was taken from them and we want it back. Simple as.
Particularly that.

Tim
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All these things that I've done - The Killers
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Chris Ripple
[Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 pm]
Damn... I just wrote (for the first time ever), an explanation line by line and the poxy thing crashed on me. Sorry, you'll have to bear with me and I'll attempt to do it again another day.
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Chris Ripple
[Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:37 pm]
Right, I'm going to punt this out in two parts because it took me ages to do it yesterday and cover all points, so here is part one which endeavours to go thru' it on a line by line basis explaining why each line went in and where it came from, ie. fact or interpretation or whatever.
I have to admit that this is the first time I have ever 'disected' anything I have ever written for anybody, so I hope you two feel honoured. It is just something I do not do, however, for the sake of clarity, here goes...

Verse one.
First two lines. Fact. Cromwell just excacerbated a problem that had been simmering since (I believe) Henry the Second sent the barons in. In one fell stroke he sort of invented partition. And this from this great ('Cos he was) Parliamentarian.
Second two lines. Fact. Following on from lines one and two.
Lines four to six. Refers to 'Alias' Ron Kavana, Shane McGowan and Christy Moore. All of whom I was listening to and going to see in concert before I wrote the poem. Christy was years earlier... early seventies and Planxty. However, much of their repertoire is from a nationalistic bent, which is quite acceptable to me in that having spent thirty plus years in the music biz', a good song is a good song. It is immaterial to me then as now what politics the singer/band expounds. The republican movement (In my opinion) definitely has the best songs. As far as jigs, reels, marches etc. I would say fifty/fifty. Irish music is great wherever it comes from, full stop.
Lines six to eight. Now with that in mind a lot of them are tales from the past, from the 'now' when I wrote it they were songs of shoot to kill, and then follow three names.
The line was going to end with 'Ned of the Hill', that I'd already decided as I just love the rhythm and cadence of the words... Ned of the Hill... It hangs together absolutely perfectly in my ears anyway. The two previous I picked from a list of about twenty-twenty five names of the dead. The only criteria I had in my head was one of the syllabels in the line. If I remember correctly it took me about twenty minutes to whittle it down to those two plus Ned of the Hill to get the line to work ?

Verse Two.
Lines one and two. I have always wondered why not giving a rats arse for the King of England was a capital offence. The man was a 'hooligan' in the proper sense but did that qualify him to be hung by the neck until dead ? I think not. Not Britain's finest hour.
Lines three and four. Fact... Unfortunately. From about 1850 Irish politics and British politics have been at serious loggerheads and the one-upmanship played by both sides I think is pretty despicable. We added to the problem with the Black and Tans, there is no doubt about it as at the time there were other options open...
Lines five to eight. A question ? General. How many more innocent victims of the violence ? I Do believe the Para's were fired upon, but I do not believe that all those who died were the perpetrators. Who in their right mind is going to show themselves in front of one of the finest regiments in the British Army and shoot at them ? Nobody, unless they want to die.
How many martyrs I suppose could be construed as a line supporting nationalism as they tended to use the term more, but I pick no side then or now, and exactly the same for line eight. I pick no side.

Verse three.
Lines one to four. I was hopeful. It started life as Adams and Major (John) and has had the name changed as the politicians changed. Adams being the only constant, but then that is fact. Now, the bit that catches everybody, the Bobby Sands bit.
I honestly believe the death of Bobby Sands (I don't use M.P. as I consider the letters detrimental to honesty, that goes for everyone) was a tragic waste. I think everybody understood the point he was making but somebody that talented (in my opinion) as a writer ????? What a stupid waste. I accept that he was high profile and an enemy (as I knew it) to MY country but he was talented. Again, I go back to what I said re. the musicians... Talent is talent. It is immaterial to me... I do not judge the work on others terms, only mine.
Lines five to eight. General. Is there anyone out there prepared to go against it ?

That's it. That's where it came from. I will post part two as soon as...
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PenJen
[Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:27 pm]
No need to, Chris - although I appreciate that you took the time to and it may be of benefit to others reading. That said, you have a few unfounded and quite shocking comments made:

Quote:
I Do believe the Para's were fired upon, but I do not believe that all those who died were the perpetrators. Who in their right mind is going to show themselves in front of one of the finest regiments in the British Army and shoot at them ? Nobody, unless they want to die.


It was stone cold murder by the Paras at a Civil Rights March where 14 were murdered (6 of them 17-years-old; others aged 19, 20, 22, 27, 31, 35, 41 and 59 years of age with a further 14 injured). 32 years later the murderers have not been brought to justice. 'Finest regiments', eh? NO.

I will not even dare to begin to discuss this with you any further.

Incidentally, I do know my history and I'm sure know it much better than most - especially moreso than those who do not come from here or live here. I would suggest you consult places and/or material of research/information and reference and get your facts right before making statements that are misleading, insulting and completely wrong. Be it for frame of mind or for a 'poem' and the like; should that be.

Bloody Sunday

Bobby Sands.


Again, I'm interested, Chris, as to how and where you recited this piece and what kind of audience was there for you to have received 'death threats'?

Tim, cheers for your comment above, too. Much appreciated and I wish more here (as in N Ire) would and could be as open as you.

Jen
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Chris Ripple
[Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:47 pm]
See... That's what happens when you try and be honest and quick and you leave stuff out of answers.
Sorry Jen, there was honestly no attempt to mislead, insult or get anything competely wrong.
I'll try again...
I believe (me personally) that the Para's heard a shot, or something that sounded like a shot (car backfiring), something anyway that could have been construed as sounding like a shot and then just let go...
That is what I believe.
I do not believe that those who died had any connection with aforesaid
possible shot sounding noise. I am certain in my own mind that twelve at least were completely innocent and I have serious doubts over the supposed nail bomber.
Personally, I believe him to have been innocent also.
Not sure how to answer the next bit...
Whether English, Irish, Japanese, Russian or whatever nationality one has, the fact remains that whether people like it or not, the Parachute Regiment is one of the finest regiments in the British army. They have proved it over and over again in their short existence. I think that can be taken as historical fact
In this particular case however... My own belief is that they behaved quite reprehensibly and have caused a rather large dishonourable stain to appear on an otherwise honourable record.
That is what I believe.
That is why I put in the bit about 'Who in their right mind... '
Nobody.
These victims were innocent in my mind at least.
I think it fair to say that being Irish, you await the Saville report with more enthusiasm than I being English. I believe that providing there is no whitewash this time, then we are going to come out of it very badly indeed.
I await it, but I do so with trepidation.
I do hope that clarifies your point. Re-reading your last note I understand why you thought the way you did and am sorry for the 'lazy' explanation. It will not happen again.

Part two (The gig) will be posted in a couple of hours (hopefully) but first I must take time out for a pitstop.
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PenJen
[Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:03 pm]
There were NO shots fired by the civilians on Sunday 30 Jan 1972. Honestly, if you want to really read more about it and understand I would recommend the book that is due out (that I mention in my first post) on 30 Jan 2008. First hand accounts and more put into verse, song and/or play scripts. Will break your heart - no matter who or what you are, what you believe or know, where you're from - religion, politics, nationality - whatever.

As for the Paras - all murderers in my eyes - be it here or internationality. A 'shoot-to-kill' policy is certainly not humane or something of 'finery'. That's my opinion.

And apology accepted. It's hard to try and express what you really want to say and mean in text on screen. I have fallen foul to this may a time. Still do, so thanks for commenting back.

All the best & take care.
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