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Poetry Showcase [Historical] Moderators for this section: Weaver, ochsterboxter, CadenzRime, Lingua Pura, ososment, carolynrn, Inker

The Map (Revised)

Outline: My second sonnet. Historical, with a wish for the future. These sonnets are not easy, and all reviewers have helped me shape this - thanks, all *wink*.
Why: Because I love him and what he stood for and did.
Review: Any comment welcome.
The Map

When World War Two was over, he sat down
And told about a land within a dream
He spoke at length and spoke of no more Crown
Or rule by those who, he said, owned the cream.

The mass, they marched, they chanted long and loud
They fought, they cried, they split, they multiplied
They won a land with Crown no longer proud
Our line upon a map was where they died.

Partition fight, it wasn’t in his plan
To form a Pakistan in West and East,
Indian nation, some called ‘Hindustan’,
Or Kashmir state, the three big cultures' beast.

But, Bapu Ji, your words were not in vain
New peace talks take away some of the pain.
Author Explanation: This year is the 60th anniversary of Indian independence.
Inker
[Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:59 pm]
Hi Ron,

Just a quick note to say read and will be back...but also (uh-oh) a quick suggestion.

In the first line:

Quote:
When WWII was over he sat down


I think WWII should be written out in full as: World War Two, otherwise if you read the letters out (which if you are a first time reader to this poem, you would), the syllable count is off the scale, lol. Think there should also be a comma after 'over' to give a break.
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Ron
[Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:38 am]
Thanks, Inker, you're right on both counts. OK

I'm going to have to work away at this, as I'm not fully happy with it yet - I have a reference to Bangladesh in there that should be East Pakistan; the name wasn't changed until after their war with India, but that would put two instances of the word Pakistan on one line; hmm . . . plus, I don't think I've done Gandhi enough justice here, but what words could? I wanted to shout his words of love loud, but have ended up whispering his name, I think. Hmm . . .

Thanks for dropping by again and I look forward to your return.

Cheers
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Carson
[Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:59 pm]
Hi Ron,

read the first octave of this last night, and I think you've finished well. Enjoyed reading. To me, it seemed there was a lot in this. I'm not overly familiar with Gandhi, only the basics really. I'm intrigued now though. Wink
Quote:
plus, I don't think I've done Gandhi enough justice here, but what words could? I wanted to shout his words of love loud, but have ended up whispering his name
Wouldn't say that, but maybe this sonnet centres around other incidents rather than Gandhi himself and his words? No expert myself, so can't really say.
Agree with you though - what words could do justice to as great a man like Gandhi? Nigh impossible for anyone to do men like him justice, but that doesn't matter. This is a tribute, and a good one.
Thanks,

Tim
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"To bore one hole after another in language, until what lurks behind it, be it something or nothing, begins to seep through. I cannot imagine a higher goal for a writer today."

Samuel Beckett
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Ron
[Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:48 pm]
Quote:
I'm not overly familiar with Gandhi, only the basics really. I'm intrigued now though. Wink


'Intrigued' in Gandhi is the perfect start to a young man's adult life. Wink OK His approach can get a person out of trouble in a sticky situation. Wink

I'm pleased you are pleased with this. Very Happy

Cheers
_________________
". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Inker
[Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:13 pm]
Hi Ron,

Me again.

On first reading the first few lines, I thought this was about Martin Luther King because of the dream reference. It was only when I saw the name underneath, the penny dropped.

If my memory serves me well, I believe he was an office worker and (as was the norm in India and America at these times) if they were seated and a white person got on the bus, they were expected to give up their seat. He didn't on one journey and thus was arrested for his 'crime'. He was a pacifist who refused to be bowed, despite the hardships and violence bestowed upon his countrymen. However, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Now, the poem...

Quote:
When World War Two was over, he sat down
And told about a land within a dream
He spoke at length and spoke of no more crown
Or rule by those who he said owned the cream.


Thank you for accepting my earlier suggestions. Now for some more for you to ponder...

When World War Two was over, he sat down
and spoke about a land within his dream.
He talked at length about ridding 'The Crown'
and rule by those who were souring our cream.

In your stanza, you have used four references to him talking (spoke, spoke, told, said). I have made a more definitive reference to dream as 'his' rather than 'a'. 'The Crown', I think, should be written as such as it refers to a known historical terminology, whereas no more crown (I feel) is unclear. Changed the last line to show difference in meter.

Quote:
The mass, they marched, they chanted long and loud
They fought, they died, they split, they multiplied
They won a land with crown no longer proud
Our line upon a map was where they died.


Gonna get picky here: 'The mass, they marched...' to be able to use the word 'they' correctly, mass should be plural - the mass refers to one group...so

The masses marched: they chanted long and loud.
They fought; they cried; they split, then multiplied.
They won their land: The Crown no longer proud.
A line drawn on our map is where they died.

Have changed the first died to cried as I feel the mentioning of it at the end of this stanza is sufficient. Also think it has more impact.


Quote:
The 'they' they numbered in their million
To form a Pakistan and Bangladesh
And Hindustani Indian lion
And Seik Cashmere Province, where three now mesh.


The first line has no differentiation in sound, so a slight tweaking - which carries onto the second line, lol. I'm not sure about the use of 'Indian lion'. The lion hails from Africa; the tiger hails from India. However, have left it because of your rhyming scheme. Have altered Seik Cashmere as I was unable to locate this area, but then it could be the spelling of Gandhi's era.

This 'they' had numbered in their millions,
helping form Pakistan and Bangladesh
with Hindustani Indian lion
and Sheikh Kashmir Province; these three now mesh.

Quote:
Oh, Bapu Gee your words were not in vain
For peace talks they now take away the pain.


The last line in this closing couplet is unclear to me, so am unable to offer any suggestions (hooray, he says) as to rewording. I'm probably missing it coz it's late, me tired and had busy day, getting ready to flee the site and meet peeps for real. I've merely suggested some alternative sounding/view. Please feel free to ignore/accept as you see relevant to your work.

I enjoyed your little history sonnet, Ron. I feel this is not really about Gandhi, but about the re-instatement of the Asian community to their own country/ies. Yes, he's named at the end and pseudo-referenced at the beginning, but the heart of this poem (to me) is about the handing back from The Crown.

Bestest
Inker
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Ron
[Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:57 pm]
Wow, that helped a lot OK and Doh can't believe I spelt Sikh and Kashmir - the homeland of the Sikh religion - the way I did. Laughing

Will give you a more in depth reply when I've studied your great suggestions more. Wink

Cheers
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Indie
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:28 am]
Hi Ron,

Thanks for writing this: it speaks of how we have squandered so great a legacy, left for us Indians by so great a man...

A couple of things:

It's Bapu ji, not gee: gee would anglicise, trivialise (when connected to oh gee!) and colonialise the word.

Also: Sikh Kashmir is an error. Kashmir is an independent state, dominated by muslims, whereas the Sikhs live in Punjab, a little further south of Kashmir. The Sikhs did have their own war of independence, but it was a seperate event from the entire Kashmir saga.

Thanks for the read.

Indie
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Indie
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Indie
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:34 am]
Inker,

He was a lawyer, and was thrown off a first class compartment in a train in South Africa. This in spite of having a valid ticket, as the person who boarded the train complained of having a coloured man in the car.

Indie
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Indie
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Ron
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:12 am]
Awh, Indie, thanks a lot - you got me out of a big hole there. Cool Cool Cool

I thought I knew my geopolitical map pretty well but I dropped a big clanger there. For some reason, for years I've thought that the Golden Temple of Amritsar was in Kashmir, thanks for putting me right. I think I was also getting mixed up by the riots and fighting and desecration of that massive mosque a few years ago that caused so much trouble.

I originally had 'Bapu Gi', but numerous searches on Google kept throwing up 'Bapu Gee', so, again, I'm grateful to you. What a wonderful name to give a wonderful man, hey, 'Honourable Father'. Very Happy

I've altered the poem with your information and I believe those corrections have made a lot of difference. Everybody who's reviewed it has shaped it, actually. Cool Cool Cool

Cheers
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Cul-De-Sac
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:14 am]
Ron the third stanza is clunky, there's no denying it from my perspective. The first two run along nicely and Inkyone's suggestion have made them read better.

Nehru the Mahamata's pupil and Jinnah Pakistan's founding father are worth a stanza each if your of a mind. They are intimately enmeshed in this story of yours and if your going to mention Gandhi then I think this would gain a certain depth with their inclusion. Up to you of course apart from that nit pick it's a good statement.

cheers Cul.





PS. A speech of Jinna's, if only it happened that way...

"If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor... you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state... in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state"
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Ron
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:23 am]
Cheers, Cul Very Happy

Yeah, Jinnah's speech - wow, yeah - if only.

What a great idea about including those names Cool I may have to alter the complete third stanza. Shocked Doh Laughing

Thanks for droppin' by, Sport. Very Happy

Cheers
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Ron
[Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:26 pm]
Inker, Cul,

Thanks again, have tweaked 3rd stanza slightly, and Inker, you were also right about 'cried'.

This may become an editing marathon. Laughing
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Indie
[Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:39 am]
Hey Ron,

Sorry to throw yet another spanner into the works...just when you think it's all done Smile, but I prefered the version where you ended with the negative: rather than the current version...for it is true that we have indeed squandered his legacy, peace talks are just political shadow boxing.

indie
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Indie
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Ron
[Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:46 pm]
Quote:
but I prefered the version where you ended with the negative:


Confused

I haven't altered the last couplet from the original, apart from the 'Ji' spelling. Confused

Quote:
peace talks are just political shadow boxing.


I sincerely hope you're wrong, Indie, as too many have suffered already. Sad

I'm thinking of changing the last line to:

New peace talks take away some of the pain.

That work?
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". . . and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." - The Beatles
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Indie
[Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:57 pm]
well,

maybe the cynic in me sees what it wants to? Shocked

so i read it in the negative; something like..

so bapuji only your words could take away the pain,
for the peace talks, they work in vain...

style, form crap i know, in how i've dashed it out (real quick), but the sentiment is how i like it: would reflect the sad reality more, in my opinion...

good luck with this ron Smile

indie
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Indie
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